- -- Start: Sunday, June 19, 1994 3:07:59 pm DUtime (EDT)
- Marcus turns Recorder on.
- Marcus says:
- allright...
- laurap arrives from nowhere.
- Marcus waves Laura, the newly enthroned... :)
- DanielP waves laurap
- laurap waves
- DanielP says:
- I didn't read my mail for the past couple of days, is there a particular agenda for today meeting?
- Marcus says:
- I just sent mail to all of you - had started
- ..writing it a few days ago, and now PMR's last one summarizes some thoughts.
- Basically,
- ..we gotta think about:
- --------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------
- o when shall we officially close the course?
- o how is the feedback effort coming along (Tina...)?
- o how shall we keep contact while the projects (hopefully)
- evolve into something of lasting value?
- o do you think there should be a followup to this course?
- o do you think the course should be changed (topics and/or structure)?
- o do you think you would want to be with us for that course?
- etc.
- --------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------
- Marcus says:
- also, there is an invitation by Sandra whose paper you have seen to collaborate on her paper. I am checking this out now. Tina isnt here and I have no report from her, unfortunately....
- I am really cutting down my other activities to participate in the course more, but it's hard right now...i am sorry.
- laurap says:
- is Sandra's paper on WWW somewhere?
- Marcus says:
- We also (last remark from me)
- ..gotta talk about chapters 7-12.
- Marcus [to laurap]:
- yes, sorry: ftp://ftp.desy.de/pub/uu-gna/txt/draft.txt
- ..but i sent her a whole lot of remarks and corrections.
- rodrigc suddenly disappears.
- Marcus yields, listening for opinions.
- (DanielP thinks: if we cover all this we are going to have a busy meeting :-) )
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- as i said in my mail: we'll have to shift to more intense mail contact.
- rodrigc arrives from nowhere.
- Marcus says:
- ...maybe form a subgroup which will start overworking the tutorial..in a while.
- Kandy says:
- What's chap 7?
- DanielP [to mar]:
- What do you want to talk about chap 7-12
- --------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------
- 7. Inheritance [under construction]
- 8. More Inheritance [under construction]
- 9. Multiple Inheritance [under construction]
- 10. Virtual Functions [under construction]
- 11. More Virtual Function [under construction]
- 12. Flyaway Adventure Game [under construction]
- 13. Parametric Polymorphism [under construction]
- 14. Exceptions [under construction]
- --------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------
- Marcus says:
- ok?
- note that i hired someone who wanted to start writing 13 - havent been in contact lately though. Traven and I are interested in this, too- we do templates a lot.
- Kandy says:
- I don't think Chap 12 is worth much. Haven't seen the code, but it's probably DOS graphics
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- ...7-12 - whether to include them in the course, or whether to break new ground after introduction to classes. depends on time table.
- Marcus nods Kandy.
- DanielP says:
- Are we going to go through the whole tutorial?
- Marcus says:
- we'll have it all ready for completeness in HTML, I hope.
- Kandy says:
- Don't you think inheritance and virt fns should be in?
- Marcus [to rodrigc]:
- 13/14 are new - i am unsure about 14, but I do value contents of 13 higher than 'inheritance'
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- probably yes. if we had the remaining 7-11 ready within the next 3 weeks, we could terminate and have an open discussion on these issues all of July - with July 31 being the official end.
- DanielP says:
- But chap 13 isn't written yet
- Kandy [to mar]:
- You mean you'd rather use containment?
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- PMR wasnt particularly happy with the style of the samples in those chapters.
- Marcus nods DanielP.
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- explain what you mean?
- Kandy says:
- Utility of inheritance. is it that you'd rather use containment?
- Marcus says:
- I propose we now talk about future chapters - and then branch off to the second bunch of questions. I have not much more than 1 hour anyway tonight.
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- I'd rather use template-based containers, yes.
- Marcus recommends the C++ report article on the topic again.
- Kandy says:
- I'm looking forward to the templates. I'm yet to learn about them.
- Marcus says:
- a big reason for me as former Fortran person being that inheritance-based containers take
- ..pointers rather than objs or refs as args. and i am not good at ptr manipulation, simply.
- DanielP says:
- In a word, containment represents HAS-A relationship, while public inheritance reprsents IS-A relationship
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- ...this is my personal goal for the matrix project.
- Marcus shrines DanielP's WORD :)
- Kandy [to DanielP]:
- It doesn't alwaysd work though
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- of course no serious design can dispense from IS-A's altogether...
- Marcus nods
- DanielP [to mar]:
- So you like inheritance too!
- Marcus says:
- let's not get lost in details for the sake of time, folxs...How do you see the next weeks/what would you LIKE to see before the course ends.
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- it's the primary characteristic of OOP, I learnt....
- DanielP agrees
- Kandy says:
- For instance, Marcus, with the matrix class you can't really derive a sparse matrix from the base class, could you?
- Marcus is thinking.
- Marcus needs only to consider sparse matrices in daily life, actually...
- Kandy [to Marcus]:
- You'd want to represent them differently so you don't waste space
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- lets discuss this separately next week - when i'll post the vector classes...
- (DanielP thinks: the cons meeting should be used for the course problems, not C++ discussions :-) )
- Marcus hopes so...
- (DanielP thinks: Has laura felt asleep? )
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- ppl may differ already when discussing which base class - in the num-analysis community there are bottom-up and top-bottom approaches discussed.
- laurap says:
- I'm awake but confused -- are we talking about what to discuss first (templates or inheritance) or considering leaving one out altogether?
- Marcus says:
- the former are NICE and transparent, but the latter seem to be FASTER...
- Marcus claps Laura. Templates: there is NO text as of yet.
- DanielP says:
- Laura has a good point
- Marcus says:
- the question is whether or not we rely for the next month on the text or not.
- ...I assume it is out of question that the team of consultants as it is now will not be going on after July 31.
- DanielP [to marc]:
- Do you have an alternative?
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- well, the alternative to announcing each chapter and properly reviewing it, or taking it easier than I do now. The questionwhether or not we'll try to enrich the web material for those chapters
- Marcus says:
- ...in the same manner as we did for 1-4.
- a technical circumstance:
- the WHOLE material will be moved to GNA Web. which will be mirrored in Europe.
- after that, everyone who is interested can modify the tutorial (getting an account from GNA at MIT).
- this will be the working mode for the remaining ppl interested in a following course. PeterMR, Traven and myself will for sure belong to this group.
- (laurap thinks: that will make indexing the tutorial easier... )
- DanielP [to Marcus]:
- What has been your impression on the development of the tutorial material so far?
- Marcus [to laurap]:
- indeed. This is yet another open question. I *DO* want the tutorial keyword searchable.
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- excellent up to and including chapter 3 - though i havent put all we have yet.
- meaning that there is MUCH more on the Web than mere better formatting and hyper-attitude :)
- DanielP [to mar]:
- So there is no real reason not to continue with this approach for the remaining chaps
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- Indeed. Only that the turnaround time is much slower.
- Marcus says:
- ...which may be better when August 1 I move the stuff.
- (Marcus thinks: be -> become )
- Marcus says:
- so, is there agreement to follow up until/including chap 11?
- Kandy says:
- I haven't looked intot the chaps. Since I don't know templates yet, I really can't offer much opinion
- DanielP [to Marcus]:
- I personally would not mind to skip the chap on MI and cover template
- Marcus says:
- I will be short of time July/August. So what about moving it earlier and giving you the chance to work on it?
- (DanielP thinks: instead (missing at the end) )
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- Same for me. But have virtual functions.
- Marcus says:
- I may have own sample programs ready until end of July.
- Kandy agrees
- (Marcus thinks: on templates... )
- Kandy says:
- on MI and virt fns
- Eurus (KellyS's emissary) appears.
- Marcus says:
- allright, and July 31 as a 'closing date' - no matter how far we get until then, or leave it open until we feel that xx% (feedback ..) have reached that point?
- (DanielP thinks: I don't understand what Kandy is agreeing on :-( )
- (Marcus thinks: how much should xx be? )
- Marcus says:
- i feel that how we see it will depend on what Tina achieves. your own time limits should be independent on that.
- how we see it = how we estimate progress etc.
- rodrigc picks up Eurus.
- Eurus (KellyS's emissary) is recalled.
- Marcus is listening, but ready to go to another item for now...(following course)
- Kandy says:
- Let me just add"
- Marcus says:
- sure.
- DanielP says:
- If I understan correctly, we closed the course on july 31st, whatever point we have reached in the tut?
- Kandy says:
- My agreement was that we leave Mult inheritance and goo on to templates
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- that is the question. I'd favor it to free consultants from their 'word', but am committed to go on developing the course. And the lists should be active as well.
- Kandy says:
- maybe we could close officially and still have the lists open for discussion
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- yes, this seems allright with all.
- Marcus nods
- Marcus looks at the calendar....
- (Kandy thinks: marcus types too fast. Or rather I'm too slow )
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- I am considering to take a 2nd job as a quick secretary :)
- DanielP says:
- What is the next point on the agenda?
- Kandy [to Marcus]:
- Time to kill ? :)
- rodrigc [to Marcus]:
- "Some of the projects could conceivably take longer than the time frame of the course.
- Marcus [to rodrigc]:
- we do hope so.
- Kandy says:
- INDEED
- Marcus [to rodrigc]:
- since the consultants and the coordinators dont overlap (at least not since April when we started)
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- ours hasnt taken off yet - neither has Laura's
- Marcus eyes Laura - you'll need some educated people.
- (laurap thinks: calling mine a "student project" might be a misnomer at this point... )
- Marcus says:
- Preliminary schedule: June 20-26 - unit 6 ...-July 31 unit 11 would fit. with dropping 9 for templates (probably last week rather)
- Marcus nods Laura..
- Marcus [to laurap]:
- Well, i liked some posts (you and PeterMR) trying to tell the basics - not sure students are sufficiently Motivated yet for this interesting applic.
- Kandy says:
- I was trying to put some programs on the WWW. I was using the parsing fns that come with NCSA httpd
- Marcus is interested, but time...
- Marcus is a CERN httpd fan himself though.
- laurap [to Kandy]:
- we could talk about this after the meeting...
- Kandy [to laurap]:
- Yes, please
- Marcus nods - do it after. WHO WOULD BE INTERESTED in joining a fall course? and WHO would want to work with us on the (new, split...) tutorial (parts) for that?
- laurap says:
- I would
- Marcus says:
- ..and who thinks the structure of the course should be CHANGED (like me and PMR)?
- DanielP [to mar]:
- I might be interested
- Kandy says:
- I'm interested, but I'm not sure about time. I hope to be wrapping my thesis work then
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- ppl like you (WITH RL students): similar to PMR, trying to make use of it for YOUR teaching?
- DanielP [to Marcus]:
- What is the new, split tut?
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- oh, dont tell me... :)
- DanielP [to Marcus]:
- That might be a possibility for sure!
- Marcus [to DanielP]:
- an idea - like splitting into the parts we have now - intro (close to C) - classes and simple inheritance - advanced concepts
- ...e.g.- subject to discussion.
- PMR and I are starting VSNS for his bioinfo course NOW. keep in touch.
- (Marcus thinks: Virtual School of Nat. Sciences )
- Kandy says:
- PMR's approach is rather nice. But it'll take alot of rewrriting.
- DanielP [to mar]:
- Where math and cs fits into this?
- (laurap thinks: PMR's approach? )
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- Yes. can only be done in a team. preferably THIS team since all of you KNOW where the problems are - wrt inet teaching.
- Marcus [to laurap]:
- last mail of his to c++-discussion - start with classes. dismiss C-stuff.
- Kandy says:
- PMR's appr: Starting with classes. Not C
- Marcus [to laurap]:
- if you look at some better proofread chapters you'll see that we tried to have it this way - not very well, but it's a beginning.
- Marcus [to Kandy]:
- I am still faster :)
- Marcus grins
- laurap says:
- Oh. That sounds like a good idea -- more interesting for people who already know C.
- laurap laughs
- Marcus [to laurap]:
- indeed.
- Marcus hopes the non-attending connsultants read the transcript and let us know...
- Marcus says:
- allright...
- I am afraid I have to go since I need 4-5 hours of sleep tonight :) - maybe the following meetings could be an hour earlier. so traven can join us too.
- (Kandy thinks: waves Marcus )
- Marcus says:
- Please someone turn recorder off at the end. I'll read the remainder most carefully.
- Marcus waves good-bye.
- Marcus goes home.
- Kandy [to DanielP]:
- Do you have anything more, or can Lauara & I talk of CGI
- Brett's Soccer Ball (BrettK's emissary) waves to all
- Brett's Soccer Ball (BrettK's emissary) bounces off on a mission
- DanielP [to Kandy]:
- I will be happy to have a short weekly meeting so go ahead
- DanielP waves all
- laurap wave danielp
- rodrigc waves to Danielp
- DanielP says goodbye
- DanielP has disconnected.
- laurap says:
- Is there any more to discuss within the meeting agenda, or should we have our cgi chat now?
- Kandy [to laurap]:
- I guess the meeting is closed....
- -- End: Sunday, June 19, 1994 4:05:08 pm DUtime (EDT)