- From: marcus@x4u2.desy.de (Ghoul@MediaMOO)
- To: marcus@x4u2.desy.de
- Subject: Meeting recording
- Date: Mon May 9 02:15:42 1994 EDT
- Plaid_Guest: BillH
- Teal_Guest: Felipe
- Hazel_Guest: PeterMR
- Ghoul: Marcus
- ===========================================
- Marcus says:
- ok. recording.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Can I use think and back quote on this MOO? Tries but error.
- Teal_Guest says:
- DivU is a little slow
- Marcus says:
- no you cannot. guest accounts are a bit spartanic here.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- ok.
- Marcus says:
- no, actually you DO hve a mis communication feature... try HELP #867
- it should work, Bill.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- It didn't work. But that's ok.
- ----------------------------------Marcus-----------------------------------
- - any students who are managing to follow the course at all?
- - any students who can't compile programs
- - how closely do we follow the book?
- - do we have weekly goals, and decide whether we are going too fast/slow?
- - when do we start thinking aboutr projects?
- - is the classroom working OK? (yes, IMO - but I don't see many
- students there)
- - are we able to update material on the Web (Marcus does a *huge*
- amount here - is he able to manage?)
- - how do the *students* feel so far - any useful feedback?
- ------ Marcus stops pasting ----------
- Marcus says:
- this is the agenda PeterMR gave us.
- (Marcus thinks: sent us, even )
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Yes, some students are following the course.
- Teal_Guest says:
- there will be consultants meeting?
- Marcus nods. I think there are about 20 from whom we have heard on either the list or the MOO, right?
- faceless has connected.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Should we discuss each of PeterMR topics in turn?
- Marcus says:
- Daniel Perron remarked that only very few people had come to see him. I think that a majority of students has received a MOO account from us though.
- Yes, let us do that.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- One student on Wed or Thur said he had done 3/4 of chapter one.
- We can tell from the students' discussion newsgroup that others are also doing compiles from chapter one.
- Marcus says:
- ...and we've heard from some who were tackling the exercises end of this week. One problem (which hopefully wont recur) is that the text was ready pretty late - some people simply had problems becuase they were using unchecked pgms.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Also, differences in compiler defaults and setups.
- Marcus says:
- Compilation: a certain number seems to try to do compilations on several compilers. Now, I bet we havent heard from some who didnt succeed at all but dont dare saying it.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I hope not. We need to know as soon as possible to resolve it.
- Marcus says:
- Lots of differences...In fact we could probably spend a month to prepare ONLY compilation notes on the first 5 programs for 20 different environments :)
- I think we should make clear that between, say, Monday-Wednesday, we want to hear about ALL remaining problmes getting those first programs compiled and say understand what they're doing.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I didn't have much problems using Symantec's compiler on a macintosh.
- Marcus [to bill]:
- I'd be pleased to add a blurp on that to the compilation notes...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok.
- Marcus says:
- ..of course notesare interesting only when they contain a problem. otherwise I simply add it to the list oftested compilers.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Some students had questions on how to get access to any C++ compiler.
- Marcus [to felipe]:
- what were your experiences? you helped with compilers a lot, i heard?
- faceless has disconnected.
- marcus a little, ive available some compilers, indeed my hppa compiler it has the utah patches that you say faceless has disconnected. --Teal_Guest
- Marcus says:
- Let us go to the next point...how closely do we follow the book: Murray ws working on chapter 2 a week ago nd he contributed on the list, so I hope it'll be ready mid of next week as well.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Isn't the book the only guide for the students on C++?
- Marcus says:
- I think so, at least for most of them.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- How can we not be following it. You're not giving "lectures" that could be different as in ordinary university courses.
- Marcus says:
- wouldnt it make sense to initiate another survey with a few simple questions for feedback on chapter 1 ? - this seems to be answered by a majority and would give us an impression - i feel i have too little data.
- i was also thinking to supplement with a 'lecture' to those who think they need to get started in a different way - along the lines of this literate dissection.
- Marcus cannot do it next week himself though...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- But, for now, the students really only have the text book to guide them.
- Marcus says:
- for week 2, I will have to stick to a 30 min/day schedule since it's a week full of other work for me...
- Marcus nods Bill.
- Marcus says:
- Maybe Daniel, who wrote the first survey, wants to write another shorter one cut to 'can you compile & execute and do you think you can follow the text'...?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I think we should let the students use the dicscussion newsgroup to reply to these surveys.
- Marcus says:
- sure, so they see in which shoes the others are.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- But, some students had difficulty sending mail. But ok receiving it.
- Marcus says:
- they know diego's address who is often helpful and seems to have an eye on the list.
- without these data, we only have MORE things still to be done: Daniel's "game" idea, e.g. The student projects.
- Any of you wants to volunteer to put together a few questions and send it to the list?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok, I'm willing.
- Marcus says:
- also, among the questions should be: 'how often have you (if at all) logged on the MOO' - 'were you able to get anything out of an online session?'
- Marcus [to Plaid_Guest]:
- thanks.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I do it today.
- Marcus says:
- In the original survey, we forgot to ask who is using which compiler...maybe, in case a student answers 'i had problems', he/she might say WHICH one on which OS is used.
- and also: 'which part of the WWW material did you find most useful?'...
- Marcus [to Plaid_Guest]:
- i'll send this transcript immediately after to the cons-list.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I can ask those two questions in the survey I will send out today.
- Marcus says:
- Another: the www question of Peter. Students start helping me here. All the REAL work with www has been given away. some just sent mail saying they like it. others added stuff (like the 'hints' from Jim Sewell). and benedetto sent many useful corrections tothe glossary today.
- another question coming to my mind: how much time do you spent on the course daily? (including MOO,textwork,doing programs)
- another: have you tried any of the exercises?
- Marcus stops now, or it'll becomea tax form :)
- Plaid_Guest says:
- OK
- Marcus says:
- since some of the students do NOT know C, I expect they may have problems with the complexity of the first programs already...
- Marcus [to bill]:
- i will do the changes to message.cc later - thanks, btw.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I thought most, if not all, knew C.
- Marcus says:
- Not all, certainly not. e.g. among the ones whom we got through the MOO (not many, maybe 5-10). I have 69 surveys only, from the 1st survey - 11 didnt reply.
- but those should ask then. I think NOW atleast it is clear thatno question is too dumb.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Can we go to next topic now on goals?
- Marcus says:
- Sure.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- The main goal is to do chapter one and ask questions if any problems.
- Marcus says:
- Yes, but I agree with DanielP that we might have to do something about the MOO - it's simply not worth it when we're idling without questions while being logged. Unless his hours are too badly chosen.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Also, learn moo and how to get to WWW.
- Marcus nods
- Teal_Guest says:
- how can we know the students are learning at the same time?, can we ask them?
- Marcus says:
- Well, met nobody who had problems with WWW - except connection problems end of last week (DESY problem).
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Yes. But, teacher office hours at a real university has same problems. Very few students show up. But they usually want the teacher or consultant to be available at know times.
- Marcus [to Teal_Guest]:
- you mean that they'r going through chapter 1 while we want it?
- Teal_Guest says:
- yes
- Marcus [to Teal_Guest]:
- we cannot know - we will if they answer the 2nd survey
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I don't understand.
- Marcus says:
- I moved one of my hour-packages to the late afternoon, but I will move back I think, because some wrote they just didnt come b/c they couldnt connect, and 1600 GMT is too late for them.
- Projects question...
- I think proposals for projects can be made any time next week...then groups can gather and may use the MOO for meetings. Or should we wait another week?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I don't have any thoughts on this right now. The students are going to need to know more about C++ before they can do any real project.
- Marcus nods
- Marcus says:
- this means that we'd have to wait at least until Chapter 4 is done (with the basics).
- I think I agree.
- we'll also have the discussion list archives next week, I hope.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Who are gone to propose projects? THe consultants or students or both?
- Hazel_Guest materializes out of thin air.
- Nestroy nods to Hazel_Guest.
- Nestroy says "Hi Hazel_Guest!"
- Marcus says:
- well, i think 2 consultants did propose something, and there were few students, too. It would be fair if students, too, could try to find collaborators on what interests them most. E.g. a math student might like to try a numerical analysis program, not GUIs...
- Hazel_Guest says:
- Hi marcus - I ma PeterMR
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Hi, Peter.
- Marcus [to Hazel_Guest]:
- hey....we're almost through with your agenda.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- hi everyone - I'll julsiten for a bit
- Marcus [to Hazel_Guest]:
- Plaid = Bill, Teal = Felipe
- it's been recorded.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- "ha"thanks
- Marcus says:
- so far, we only agreed that Bill will try to come up with a 2nd survey...
- Hazel_Guest thinks a survey is v good idea
- Marcus says:
- ...so we have some more data.
- Marcus nods. More or less covering what you said in your mail. and Bill meant it should go over the discussion list.
- Hazel_Guest will just listen for a bit
- Marcus [to bill]:
- I propose you write they should reply with "Subject: SURVEY"...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok.
- Hazel_Guest can't page marcus - not the name of a player
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Anything more on projects?
- Marcus [to Hazel_Guest]:
- it's 'Ghoul' here :)
- Marcus transforms into a ghastly ghouling creature.
- Ghoul [to bill]:
- you see any need to *announce* the change to message.cc?
- Teal_Guest says:
- I talk about a graph library vogl...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- No. I think it is too late for this class.
- Ghoul nods Bill.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- What is the graph library vogl?
- Hazel_Guest likes the idea of a graph library but would need to have a look first.
- Teal_Guest says:
- it wants to be as SiliconGraphics GL library
- for X11 and pc's, ive only used on x11
- Hazel_Guest says:
- IF the library is robust AND portable to various machines, then encapsulating it in C++ might just be possible (and very useful)
- Ghoul thinks Bill is right though that we shouldnt scare off ppl who just had a first glance at the language with ambitious projects. maybe Felipe or others can gather interested ppl at the MOO for now.
- Ghoul glides into his comfortable real life skin.
- Hazel_Guest thinks that gathering ppl is a good idea
- Hazel_Guest says:
- have we discussed simple projects this evevning (it's evening here!)
- Marcus says:
- no.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Some students know C++ already. They may wish to work on more advanced projects.
- Marcus says:
- I also have to go now...any of you should be able to do 'turn recorder off'. I'll login tomorrow, get the transcript and mail it to you. ok?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- perhaps we should offer 2-3 projects and see how the students group. That would give us an idea of the level we might set. I'm keen that the newcomers should actually build a simple useful class
- Marcus [to Plaid_Guest]:
- can you try to turn it off?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I'll try>
- Marcus nods.
- Marcus transforms into a ghastly ghouling creature.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Can we give mor than 2 or 3 projects?
- Hazel_Guest says:
- yes I'd be happy. shall I give a list of basic ideas which we could start with?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- I think we *have* to have a String class - not necessarily write it, but we must have it
- Plaid_Guest says:
- This would be good for those just starting learing C++.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- The next simplestr class would be Date. There is a *lot* that can be done with date. Students can add simple functions to calculate 'next tuesday', Christmas
- and many other festivals. Good for internationality
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok.
- Ghoul waves - gotta go - later!
- Ghoul goes home.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Bye.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- also they can translate VAX dates, DOS dates, etc. Extend it to sort-by-date
- If that doensn't keep them busy, add a Time class as well. With hours -> milliseconds
- If they wrote a good class like that *I* would use it!
- Next step up is a simple class for managing the students in the class. A hardcoded container for a student's details. that is where the String comes in - it's used for a lot of member data
- e.g. calss Student { String name; String e-mail ...}
- Later they rewrite this with a class E-mail
- The difficult bit comes where we suggest they start writingor even using container classes. I am not sure whether we should get there...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Could a student work on more than one project. For example, do one or two string classes, a date method, and some student container classes?
- Hazel_Guest says:
- Fo"We can't *stop* students working on what they like !!! but realistically I think we can look after the *simple* projects. For the more complex ones, it will be a job to get them writing in the same way so they can inertchange code
- If *we* sit down and write container classes, we will all have quite different ideas!
- However if we communally design a Student class, the students can add the bits on quite easily
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Who is going to coordinate a project? A consultant? several consultants?
- Hazel_Guest says:
- As you will find, I am not a great fan of inheritance. It has its uses, but isn't easy to start with.
- I think that for the 8simple* projects we need 1-2 consultants. Maybe the students can work in 2-3 groups. (e.g. for the Date) and see what they come up with.
- Or maybe we can have 2-3 projects *at this level*. Any ideas besides Date and Time? (*not* container classes)
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Will some students be working on the same method, or will each be given unique ones?
- Hazel_Guest says:
- I like the idea of different students doing different methods! they submit their entry in the *.h file and make *sure* thateveryone agrees on what it is for!
- "then they go off and try to write it. And the *others* write simple test routines!
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I agree. But are we going to have enough methods to give to each?
- Hazel_Guest says:
- So there is very much the idea of For Date I could probably come up with about 30.
- sorry - start at 'For'
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Also, some methods will be good to learn a particular technique. So, the student might want to work on it even though others are doing it also.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- For example, 'easter' is a very difficult member function to write!
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Nobody might want to do the "easter" method!
- Hazel_Guest says:
- Perhaps we could choose a few more classes. I like EMAIL, URL, etc since these are things they understand and use. E.g. 'find all URLs which conatin a given string', using the String member function Find..
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I would be interested in doing that myself!
- Hazel_Guest says:
- good !
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Would this be running on unix machine to do this?
- Hazel_Guest says:
- these can be exteded to sim"We can do all of this on DOS. It will all be String-based. But if the member functions actually *do* anything then it is system dependent.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- In my classes fro Date and Time there are a lot of #ifdef DOS, etc
- Plaid_Guest says:
- You been submitted your projects on the consultant newsgroup. This makes it easy for others to comment and add ideas.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- It's also quite a useful place to introduce template sorts, etc since we can take sorts from the literature and simply replace 'int' by URL
- I have to go now... sorry! This is all recorded? I'l alkso post these ideas if you think it is a good idea?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Yes.
- Bye.
- Hazel_Guest says:
- bye then...
- Hazel_Guest has disconnected.
- The housekeeper arrives to remove Hazel_Guest.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Any comments on projects, Felipe?
- Teal_Guest says:
- I think its a good idea, maybe we must think in anothers...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Yes?
- Teal_Guest says:
- ...related with the students interests...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I agree.
- Teal_Guest says:
- by example (in my case) some mathematical objects...
- like graphs, and polynomials
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Yes, that would be good.
- Teal_Guest says:
- ive worked on list class (a container) and maybe it would be a simple introductry class to containers...
- ...aka data structures...
- In graph theory are widely used...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Ok. Are you ready to discuss if the classroom is working OK?
- Teal_Guest says:
- ...I think there are simple
- examples of their use.
- yes
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Have you mentioned your project in the consultant newsgroup or on the WWW?
- Teal_Guest says:
- Im new here so, maybe i missed some things, b
- No its unclear still
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Have you used the consultant newsgroup to send mail to it?
- Teal_Guest says:
- ...some thin
- sorry, No ive just respond directly to people about sugestions...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Can you send a brief description of your math project on graphs, etc to it so that it can at least be recorded and others comment on it?
- Teal_Guest says:
- ok, i will
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I think Marcus set up a page on the web for project proposals, but I don't know how to use it to add to it.
- Let's now go to the next topic: is the classroom working OK?
- You have any comments, Felipe?
- Teal_Guest says:
- I think there are very few students at a time in the classroom, im connected fom 16-18 & 0-2 GMT aprox and ive contacted 5 to 8 students at all
- Plaid_Guest says:
- That's about what I got.
- Teal_Guest says:
- "i think there are *many* students without thei password still...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I only give out about 5"
- 5 passwords, that is.
- Teal_Guest says:
- isnt working the alphabetical division of Marcus...
- ...or they even know what to do...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I don't understand the alphabetical division... I wanted to look it up in my e-mail, but I haven't got around to it.
- Teal_Guest says:
- ...maybe if we (consultants), send a short email to their accounts, the division becomes to work
- Plaid_Guest says:
- What is the division idea?
- Teal_Guest says:
- to divide the students betwen the consultants, at least by the first weeks to help them moving in the MOO
- please, wt a sec. im searching it...
- Plaid_Guest says:
- For online help or for the student discussion list?
- Teal_Guest says:
- online help as i understand
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I thought it was only for answering questions from the student discussion list!
- I don't see any need to restrict the students from online consulting. I think we agree that this is not a great number coming at any one time.
- Teal_Guest says:
- yes, it was the original idea from Marcus, (I found it)
- Plaid_Guest says:
- And, what is the division method?
- Teal_Guest says:
- not restriction, but that at least we(consultants) have (the duty?) for take them into the MOO world (at least)
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I took anybody who had a question. Most seem to pick up mooing quickly.
- Teal_Guest says:
- Take the initial letter from the student last name, and consult the list e-mailed
- Im too, but i think that the problem is that there are many of them that havent not accesed MOO
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I hope this second survey will answer that question.
- Teal_Guest says:
- How works The Survey ?
- do u have The List?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I'm going to write up the questions and send it to the students' discussion newsgroup. I think they can all read the e-mail from it.
- They will reply to the survey. Those that don't reply we can contact to see if they are having trouble posting to the discussion newsgroup.
- Let's now go to the next topic: can we update material on the Web?
- I don't know how. But, I never sought how to do it since I was learning other, more basic things.
- What about you, Felipe?
- Teal_Guest says:
- "i saw the glossary, i like it, maybe its low used (i dont know html)
- it has a link to Object Oriented Programming ...
- that maybe should be emphatized;
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I think Marcus should send more detail on updating the web to the consultants.
- Teal_Guest says:
- ive the html page tutorial on my hotlist but i havent time to read it
- Plaid_Guest says:
- My hotlist is growing also.
- Ok. Let's now go to the last topic: do you have any feedback from the students on how they feel about the course?
- Teal_Guest says:
- No, but ive noted that some ones, just go to MOO, checks the Bulletin, Black or notes and then goaway!, just a couple of minutes, just contacting for *news* about the class
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I think that is OK. I do it myself.
- Teal_Guest says:
- I think the discussion list is more used (ask to my mail :( )
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Yes. Maybe because they are use to e-mail.
- Teal_Guest says:
- its easier
- Do you know at what times the students used the MOO mostly?
- Plaid_Guest says:
- But, the MOO allow immediate interaction which e-mail can't do. Also, interaction with 3 or more people at the same time.
- Suddenly, the VS-L(DU) goes blank, and white noise replaces the image.
- Plaid_Guest says:
- I think they use it almost any time.
- Well, I'm have to go now. Do you have any last comments?
- Teal_Guest says:
- you say well distributed?,
- No coments
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Whenever I logon at odd times, I usually find someone else there.
- Ok. Then, I guess that will end this meeting.
- Bye, Felipe. See you later.
- Teal_Guest says:
- i still waiting the coffee
- bye
- Plaid_Guest says:
- Don't forget to charge the check to GNA/DU
- Teal_Guest smiles
- Plaid_Guest has disconnected.
- The housekeeper arrives to remove Plaid_Guest.
- Teal_Guest has disconnected.
- The housekeeper arrives to remove Teal_Guest.
- Suddenly, the VS-L(DU)'s screen flickers, and the image returns.