-- Start: Sunday, June 19, 1994 3:07:59 pm DUtime (EDT)

Marcus turns Recorder on.
Marcus says:
allright...
laurap arrives from nowhere.
Marcus waves Laura, the newly enthroned... :)
DanielP waves laurap
laurap waves
DanielP says:
I didn't read my mail for the past couple of days, is there a particular agenda for today meeting?
Marcus says:
I just sent mail to all of you - had started
..writing it a few days ago, and now PMR's last one summarizes some thoughts.
Basically,
..we gotta think about:
--------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------

o when shall we officially close the course?
o how is the feedback effort coming along (Tina...)?
o how shall we keep contact while the projects (hopefully)
evolve into something of lasting value?

o do you think there should be a followup to this course?
o do you think the course should be changed (topics and/or structure)?
o do you think you would want to be with us for that course?

etc.

--------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------
Marcus says:
also, there is an invitation by Sandra whose paper you have seen to collaborate on her paper. I am checking this out now. Tina isnt here and I have no report from her, unfortunately....
I am really cutting down my other activities to participate in the course more, but it's hard right now...i am sorry.
laurap says:
is Sandra's paper on WWW somewhere?
Marcus says:
We also (last remark from me)
..gotta talk about chapters 7-12.
Marcus [to laurap]:
yes, sorry: ftp://ftp.desy.de/pub/uu-gna/txt/draft.txt
..but i sent her a whole lot of remarks and corrections.
rodrigc suddenly disappears.
Marcus yields, listening for opinions.
(DanielP thinks: if we cover all this we are going to have a busy meeting :-) )
Marcus [to DanielP]:
as i said in my mail: we'll have to shift to more intense mail contact.
rodrigc arrives from nowhere.
Marcus says:
...maybe form a subgroup which will start overworking the tutorial..in a while.
Kandy says:
What's chap 7?
DanielP [to mar]:
What do you want to talk about chap 7-12
--------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------
7. Inheritance [under construction]
8. More Inheritance [under construction]
9. Multiple Inheritance [under construction]
10. Virtual Functions [under construction]
11. More Virtual Function [under construction]
12. Flyaway Adventure Game [under construction]
13. Parametric Polymorphism [under construction]
14. Exceptions [under construction]

--------------------------------Marcus (#1459)---------------------------------
Marcus says:
ok?
note that i hired someone who wanted to start writing 13 - havent been in contact lately though. Traven and I are interested in this, too- we do templates a lot.
Kandy says:
I don't think Chap 12 is worth much. Haven't seen the code, but it's probably DOS graphics
Marcus [to DanielP]:
...7-12 - whether to include them in the course, or whether to break new ground after introduction to classes. depends on time table.
Marcus nods Kandy.
DanielP says:
Are we going to go through the whole tutorial?
Marcus says:
we'll have it all ready for completeness in HTML, I hope.
Kandy says:
Don't you think inheritance and virt fns should be in?
Marcus [to rodrigc]:
13/14 are new - i am unsure about 14, but I do value contents of 13 higher than 'inheritance'
Marcus [to Kandy]:
probably yes. if we had the remaining 7-11 ready within the next 3 weeks, we could terminate and have an open discussion on these issues all of July - with July 31 being the official end.
DanielP says:
But chap 13 isn't written yet
Kandy [to mar]:
You mean you'd rather use containment?
Marcus [to Kandy]:
PMR wasnt particularly happy with the style of the samples in those chapters.
Marcus nods DanielP.
Marcus [to Kandy]:
explain what you mean?
Kandy says:
Utility of inheritance. is it that you'd rather use containment?
Marcus says:
I propose we now talk about future chapters - and then branch off to the second bunch of questions. I have not much more than 1 hour anyway tonight.
Marcus [to Kandy]:
I'd rather use template-based containers, yes.
Marcus recommends the C++ report article on the topic again.
Kandy says:
I'm looking forward to the templates. I'm yet to learn about them.
Marcus says:
a big reason for me as former Fortran person being that inheritance-based containers take
..pointers rather than objs or refs as args. and i am not good at ptr manipulation, simply.
DanielP says:
In a word, containment represents HAS-A relationship, while public inheritance reprsents IS-A relationship
Marcus [to Kandy]:
...this is my personal goal for the matrix project.
Marcus shrines DanielP's WORD :)
Kandy [to DanielP]:
It doesn't alwaysd work though
Marcus [to DanielP]:
of course no serious design can dispense from IS-A's altogether...
Marcus nods
DanielP [to mar]:
So you like inheritance too!
Marcus says:
let's not get lost in details for the sake of time, folxs...How do you see the next weeks/what would you LIKE to see before the course ends.
Marcus [to DanielP]:
it's the primary characteristic of OOP, I learnt....
DanielP agrees
Kandy says:
For instance, Marcus, with the matrix class you can't really derive a sparse matrix from the base class, could you?
Marcus is thinking.
Marcus needs only to consider sparse matrices in daily life, actually...
Kandy [to Marcus]:
You'd want to represent them differently so you don't waste space
Marcus [to Kandy]:
lets discuss this separately next week - when i'll post the vector classes...
(DanielP thinks: the cons meeting should be used for the course problems, not C++ discussions :-) )
Marcus hopes so...
(DanielP thinks: Has laura felt asleep? )
Marcus [to Kandy]:
ppl may differ already when discussing which base class - in the num-analysis community there are bottom-up and top-bottom approaches discussed.
laurap says:
I'm awake but confused -- are we talking about what to discuss first (templates or inheritance) or considering leaving one out altogether?
Marcus says:
the former are NICE and transparent, but the latter seem to be FASTER...
Marcus claps Laura. Templates: there is NO text as of yet.
DanielP says:
Laura has a good point
Marcus says:
the question is whether or not we rely for the next month on the text or not.
...I assume it is out of question that the team of consultants as it is now will not be going on after July 31.
DanielP [to marc]:
Do you have an alternative?
Marcus [to DanielP]:
well, the alternative to announcing each chapter and properly reviewing it, or taking it easier than I do now. The questionwhether or not we'll try to enrich the web material for those chapters
Marcus says:
...in the same manner as we did for 1-4.
a technical circumstance:
the WHOLE material will be moved to GNA Web. which will be mirrored in Europe.
after that, everyone who is interested can modify the tutorial (getting an account from GNA at MIT).
this will be the working mode for the remaining ppl interested in a following course. PeterMR, Traven and myself will for sure belong to this group.
(laurap thinks: that will make indexing the tutorial easier... )
DanielP [to Marcus]:
What has been your impression on the development of the tutorial material so far?
Marcus [to laurap]:
indeed. This is yet another open question. I *DO* want the tutorial keyword searchable.
Marcus [to DanielP]:
excellent up to and including chapter 3 - though i havent put all we have yet.
meaning that there is MUCH more on the Web than mere better formatting and hyper-attitude :)
DanielP [to mar]:
So there is no real reason not to continue with this approach for the remaining chaps
Marcus [to DanielP]:
Indeed. Only that the turnaround time is much slower.
Marcus says:
...which may be better when August 1 I move the stuff.
(Marcus thinks: be -> become )
Marcus says:
so, is there agreement to follow up until/including chap 11?
Kandy says:
I haven't looked intot the chaps. Since I don't know templates yet, I really can't offer much opinion
DanielP [to Marcus]:
I personally would not mind to skip the chap on MI and cover template
Marcus says:
I will be short of time July/August. So what about moving it earlier and giving you the chance to work on it?
(DanielP thinks: instead (missing at the end) )
Marcus [to DanielP]:
Same for me. But have virtual functions.
Marcus says:
I may have own sample programs ready until end of July.
Kandy agrees
(Marcus thinks: on templates... )
Kandy says:
on MI and virt fns
Eurus (KellyS's emissary) appears.
Marcus says:
allright, and July 31 as a 'closing date' - no matter how far we get until then, or leave it open until we feel that xx% (feedback ..) have reached that point?
(DanielP thinks: I don't understand what Kandy is agreeing on :-( )
(Marcus thinks: how much should xx be? )
Marcus says:
i feel that how we see it will depend on what Tina achieves. your own time limits should be independent on that.
how we see it = how we estimate progress etc.
rodrigc picks up Eurus.
Eurus (KellyS's emissary) is recalled.
Marcus is listening, but ready to go to another item for now...(following course)
Kandy says:
Let me just add"
Marcus says:
sure.
DanielP says:
If I understan correctly, we closed the course on july 31st, whatever point we have reached in the tut?
Kandy says:
My agreement was that we leave Mult inheritance and goo on to templates
Marcus [to DanielP]:
that is the question. I'd favor it to free consultants from their 'word', but am committed to go on developing the course. And the lists should be active as well.
Kandy says:
maybe we could close officially and still have the lists open for discussion
Marcus [to Kandy]:
yes, this seems allright with all.
Marcus nods
Marcus looks at the calendar....
(Kandy thinks: marcus types too fast. Or rather I'm too slow )
Marcus [to Kandy]:
I am considering to take a 2nd job as a quick secretary :)
DanielP says:
What is the next point on the agenda?
Kandy [to Marcus]:
Time to kill ? :)
rodrigc [to Marcus]:
"Some of the projects could conceivably take longer than the time frame of the course.
Marcus [to rodrigc]:
we do hope so.
Kandy says:
INDEED
Marcus [to rodrigc]:
since the consultants and the coordinators dont overlap (at least not since April when we started)
Marcus [to Kandy]:
ours hasnt taken off yet - neither has Laura's
Marcus eyes Laura - you'll need some educated people.
(laurap thinks: calling mine a "student project" might be a misnomer at this point... )
Marcus says:
Preliminary schedule: June 20-26 - unit 6 ...-July 31 unit 11 would fit. with dropping 9 for templates (probably last week rather)
Marcus nods Laura..
Marcus [to laurap]:
Well, i liked some posts (you and PeterMR) trying to tell the basics - not sure students are sufficiently Motivated yet for this interesting applic.
Kandy says:
I was trying to put some programs on the WWW. I was using the parsing fns that come with NCSA httpd
Marcus is interested, but time...
Marcus is a CERN httpd fan himself though.
laurap [to Kandy]:
we could talk about this after the meeting...
Kandy [to laurap]:
Yes, please
Marcus nods - do it after. WHO WOULD BE INTERESTED in joining a fall course? and WHO would want to work with us on the (new, split...) tutorial (parts) for that?
laurap says:
I would
Marcus says:
..and who thinks the structure of the course should be CHANGED (like me and PMR)?
DanielP [to mar]:
I might be interested
Kandy says:
I'm interested, but I'm not sure about time. I hope to be wrapping my thesis work then
Marcus [to DanielP]:
ppl like you (WITH RL students): similar to PMR, trying to make use of it for YOUR teaching?
DanielP [to Marcus]:
What is the new, split tut?
Marcus [to Kandy]:
oh, dont tell me... :)
DanielP [to Marcus]:
That might be a possibility for sure!
Marcus [to DanielP]:
an idea - like splitting into the parts we have now - intro (close to C) - classes and simple inheritance - advanced concepts
...e.g.- subject to discussion.
PMR and I are starting VSNS for his bioinfo course NOW. keep in touch.
(Marcus thinks: Virtual School of Nat. Sciences )
Kandy says:
PMR's approach is rather nice. But it'll take alot of rewrriting.
DanielP [to mar]:
Where math and cs fits into this?
(laurap thinks: PMR's approach? )
Marcus [to Kandy]:
Yes. can only be done in a team. preferably THIS team since all of you KNOW where the problems are - wrt inet teaching.
Marcus [to laurap]:
last mail of his to c++-discussion - start with classes. dismiss C-stuff.
Kandy says:
PMR's appr: Starting with classes. Not C
Marcus [to laurap]:
if you look at some better proofread chapters you'll see that we tried to have it this way - not very well, but it's a beginning.
Marcus [to Kandy]:
I am still faster :)
Marcus grins
laurap says:
Oh. That sounds like a good idea -- more interesting for people who already know C.
laurap laughs
Marcus [to laurap]:
indeed.
Marcus hopes the non-attending connsultants read the transcript and let us know...
Marcus says:
allright...
I am afraid I have to go since I need 4-5 hours of sleep tonight :) - maybe the following meetings could be an hour earlier. so traven can join us too.
(Kandy thinks: waves Marcus )
Marcus says:
Please someone turn recorder off at the end. I'll read the remainder most carefully.
Marcus waves good-bye.
Marcus goes home.
Kandy [to DanielP]:
Do you have anything more, or can Lauara & I talk of CGI
Brett's Soccer Ball (BrettK's emissary) waves to all
Brett's Soccer Ball (BrettK's emissary) bounces off on a mission
DanielP [to Kandy]:
I will be happy to have a short weekly meeting so go ahead
DanielP waves all
laurap wave danielp
rodrigc waves to Danielp
DanielP says goodbye
DanielP has disconnected.
laurap says:
Is there any more to discuss within the meeting agenda, or should we have our cgi chat now?
Kandy [to laurap]:
I guess the meeting is closed....

-- End: Sunday, June 19, 1994 4:05:08 pm DUtime (EDT)