The very beginning of this transcript is missing -- apparently I can only read and mail myself the part that covers what happened after I arrived. -- Laura

BillH [to TinaP]:
Hi

BrettK waves to laurap.
Marcus says:
Hi there.
laurap says:
Hi, everyone.
BillH [to laurap]:
Hi
Marcus says:
As I said: the very last meeting of the old team...officially.
There are two things on our agenda:
1) Tina Pitt's report
2) The move to GNA and the transition to the next course.
Pmrtape is unceremoniously expelled from GNA C++ Class by Marcus.
Dan's_tape is unceremoniously expelled from GNA C++ Class by Marcus.
Marcus says:
Any other items someone wants to discuss, so we can schedule - shouldnt last longer than one hour (for me at least)
Marcus ??
Marcus [to BrettK]:
Also (wrt leaving DivU): which other MOOs has such a nice classroom :) :)
(BillH thinks: I have no other items )
BrettK grins.
Marcus says:
Allright then...What can you tell us, Tina?
Marcus sits down at Teacher's Desk. . .
Marcus stands up from Teacher's Desk. . .
TinaP says:
well, I've not processed all the evals yet, but I'd like to give you an overall report
Marcus oops
Marcus [to TinaP]:
Great.
TinaP says:
I will post the entire report on the mailing list
we got 21 responses
many of them coming in after the first follow up
(Marcus thinks: That is not very much... )
(laurap thinks: 25% is probably pretty good, actually. )
TinaP says:
many people did email me and tell me that they were too busy and would try to get it to me but I needed to cut it off at a point
I think it was a good response
especially since it is summer
a major portion of the responses were highly positive
I would estimate that 80% of the people answering would take a course like this one again
and some answered perhaps
I'm going to give you some individual comments that give you a flavor or the responses
Marcus ok
TinaP says:
one said that it was a great first course
One said that they will use C++ in all their larger projects in the future
(Marcus thinks: that *is* surprising :) :) )
Marcus smiles.
TinaP says:
one thought that the lack of response to the consultants may be due to the fact that there wasn't just one person to ask
EMF arrives from nowhere.
TinaP says:
This person thought that there should be groups of students assigned to one consultant
Marcus closes the door to GNA C++ Class...
TinaP says:
like learning groups
(Marcus thinks: Dan's original idea, actually, which we dismissed later on. )
TinaP says:
They did like asking questions, which increased their learning rate a lot
BrettK says:
students do seem to prefer talking to the same person
TinaP says:
one commented that the consultants seemed at a too high a level for them
the moo environment had problems with time differences
Marcus nods...(sigh)
TinaP says:
one did say that the environment in conection with the mailing list was a mighty resource
on the text...
EMF reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
TinaP says:
it was new and fun, some used the text a lot,
some thought that the text was a bit short in some areas and wanted it to go into greater depth in some areas
as far as posting to the mailing list...
It didn't fare as well...
comments were: material too advanced, too crowded, sometimes too specialized
Marcus [to TinaP]:
This is a comment on the discussion threads?
Marcus says:
..in the maillists?
TinaP says:
projects: when they had time, found projects very helpful
homework: interesting....
EMF reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
EMF reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
TinaP says:
one said that the idea of building homework on top of old homework..
EMF reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
TinaP says:
is brilliant and should be emphasized in the future
all in all most positive evals so far
Marcus says:
were there specific suggestions as to what needs improvements and in which sense?
TinaP says:
It look like small group learning with one consultant for each group looks like a way to go
Marcus nods.
TinaP says:
perhaps learning contracts can do that for you and make it more personal
That's it for me, any questions?
laurap [to TinaP]:
It sounds as though people said they liked the moo environment better than the mailing lists -- is that true?
TinaP says:
it looks like it now
laurap is surprised.
TinaP says:
people like more personal attention
Marcus says:
I can understand in so far as the maillists may be hard to browse as a whole unless you participate in a dicussion.
EMF flattens out into a largish 29 cent postage stamp and floats away.
BrettK says:
perhaps a student only mail list also
TinaP says:
especially in this type of environment
Marcus says:
...which is why 'closed' parts better be used to enlarge the tutorial.
laurap [to TinaP]:
this type?
TinaP says:
you don't have human contact
(BillH thinks: what is "closed" parts )
laurap nods
TinaP says:
physically
Marcus [to BillH]:
finite discussions. Those which result in a student/consultant presenting a subtopic in a conclusive manner.
those things which I have collected in 'Additional Reading'.
Marcus agrees that 'closed' is inappropriate in connection with C++ :) :)
TinaP says:
by the way many did use outside readings
Marcus [to TinaP]:
like?
TinaP says:
did not give examples
Marcus [to TinaP]:
Textbooks or other WWW resources?
TinaP says:
other texts
Marcus says:
That's interesting. So did the consultants, btw (if you look at their answers - Stroustrup here and there )
TinaP says:
I think the responses are a good start to creating a solid course
(Marcus thinks: ...more solid than a GNA URL :) ? )
Marcus laffs.
TinaP smiles.
Marcus [to TinaP]:
I agree - thanks so much for your work and input, Tina!
TinaP says:
I'll report as soon as I can.
I'll catch everyone on the email!
bye!
laurap [to TinaP]:
bye, Tina, thanks much!
Marcus waves good-bye.
BrettK waves to TinaP.
BillH [to TinaP]:
Bye, Thanks also
TinaP has disconnected.
Marcus says:
This was nice indeed.
laurap says:
yes -- it's nice to know there were so many positive responses.
Marcus nods.
BillH says:
I was also supprised at the negative response about the mailing list
laurap says:
I thought it was the most valuable part of the course...
Marcus says:
Well, I know the problem myself. It's hard to followup by reading only. See Usenet. Whenever possible, you get into a one-to-one discussion, dont you?
BillH agrees
laurap says:
yes...
Marcus [to laurap]:
One should see the lot of maillists together - and as a document, the maillist archives are much more of historic value. THey arent searchable, to mention only one thing...
BillH says:
I don't like the one-to-one discussions. I'm one of the silent readers or mailing lists
laurap says:
some of the more advanced material appeared only in the mailing list -- hopefully that will be incorporated into the text by next term.
(Marcus thinks: well, all the hard work ahead... )
laurap [to Marcus]:
also, I don't think people have been very good about following the "first word of the subject is a keyword" rule...
Marcus [to laurap]:
I know, but I found it too hard to insist again and again.
laurap says:
I think a keywords header might be better
BrettK nods to laurap.
Marcus [to laurap]:
I wonder whether there is an automatic way to make some other document from the hyperarchives.
Marcus nods
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart TinaP off to their dream-research labs.
Marcus says:
This was part of one of my first how-to-use messages, but the consultants didnt even comply to it...
BrettK finds it hard to use [keyword] subject on the subject line
BrettK says:
I never use it anywhere else...out of habit I guess
Marcus is looking at a Subject sorting now..
BrettK says:
News does it for you
Marcus [to BrettK]:
no machine does humanly indexing for you...
Marcus smiles.
laurap [to BrettK]:
you mean, divides into topics?
BrettK says:
no prompts for keywords if you want it
(BillH thinks: News maintain threads together )
BrettK says:
separate header
subject: foo
keywords: bar
laurap nods
Marcus says:
One reason may also be that (by number) none of the threads really was discussed long enough - cause other things came up too fast.
Marcus didnt even know about the keyword header... :)
laurap says:
the nice thing about keywords is you can have more than one of them...
Marcus says:
Similarly, comp.lang.c++ simply kills you by its traffic (kills me, that is).
BrettK says:
that would allow for machine sorting
Marcus wishes for a keyword to his whole life.
Marcus grins.
laurap laughs
BrettK laughs.
Marcus says:
Actually, the maillists may prove more useful than we/they thought AFTER the course - when ppl feel they need to go back.
BrettK says:
I have used Mosaic to review the archives, it does come in handy
Marcus says:
That's why I would like to have the WWW archives as part of the course which can be searched using ICE or whatever. What do you think?
BrettK says:
ICE?
Marcus has taken notes himself - to look at quite a number of postings later in life.
BrettK says:
that would be a good idea, we should weed out the "me too" type postings though
Marcus [to BrettK]:
a perl indexing package coming with the CERN httpd.
laurap agrees about the mail archives
BrettK wonders what is the attraction with perl and Unix people
Marcus [to BrettK]:
Yeah, good idea - review the stuff. can be done by simpy dividing by weeks, so its not too much.
BrettK grins.
Marcus would erase all his "you too" postings as well, btw :)
(Marcus thinks: Big Coordinator Is Watching You! )
laurap [to BrettK]:
ICE is about a million times easier to use than WAIS indexing.
laurap laughs
Marcus nods nods nods
BrettK says:
will there be a verions for the Mac?
Marcus [to laurap]:
it seems to me that the package only has to be COPIED to uu-gna.miteedu since we HAVE CERN httpd (8003). then go cgi-bin/ice-form.pl...
Marcus eyes Laura Perl(1)man :)
Marcus grins wildly.
laurap laughs
BrettK groans
laurap [to Marcus]:
ICE works fine with NCSA httpd, too. And my last name has TWO a's.
Marcus shrugs (I know, kidding, sorry)
Marcus is regressing quickly as the course terminates...
Marcus laffs.
laurap [to BrettK]:
ICE probably won't be ported to the mac, but it only needs to run on the server side.
Marcus says:
so, the client needs HTML forms support, thats all.
laurap says:
not even forms support --- ice-line.pl supports isindex queries.
Marcus says:
which MacMosaic has, I assume...
Marcus didnt know that. Error in his help page, then...
BrettK says:
not that I've seen in this version...(forms support)
laurap says:
mac mosaic 1.0.3 has indexes but not forms. mac mosaic 2.00a6 has both.
Marcus [to laurap]:
i had some mind boggling discussions with the author about the right search syntax...
Marcus smiles.
BrettK says:
cool, I'll have to upgrade :)
(BillH thinks: MacWeb has form support )
Marcus [to laurap]:
isnt this browser written in C++??
BrettK says:
I think someone can hack ICE into Applescript...
laurap [to Marcus]:
huh, what browser?
Marcus [to laurap]:
*the* (?) Mac browser....
Marcus hasnt touched an Apple for about 100 years.
Marcus laffs. Big RMS is watching *me*.
laurap [to Marcus]:
I don't know -- I have a mac in my office but I just download binaries blindly.
laurap laugs
(laurap thinks: laughs, even )
Marcus [to laurap]:
blindly fits :)
BrettK writes a Mac conversion gospel kit
Marcus [to BrettK]:
gospel?
BrettK says:
to show people the true patht o enlightened computing
(Marcus thinks: go-and-spell? )
laurap says:
The editors at RAND decided we won't install the isindex version of ice on our external server, because the search syntax is "too complicated".
BrettK laughs.
Marcus laffs!
BrettK says:
how about an SQL front for it?
Marcus says:
alright folxs, enough rambling...we have another topic to discuss - or rather question-session: MOVE and FUTURE. Though some people arent here (Dan, Jim, PeterRM, Traven...)
Any questions with respect to my mail(s) today?
laurap says:
where is the "official" text now?
Marcus wonders how many of those who WANT to work on thefuture course do have an account at uu-gna.mit.edu....
BrettK says:
I don't
laurap says:
I do.
BillH says:
I don't
Marcus [to laurap]:
still at DESY, but I think I will do further updates (next weekend, if at all) at GNA. And so should each of you who want to lay their fingers on it.
Marcus says:
well, whoever WANTS one should write email this week to joe@mit.edu (longer response time)
...stating that they are in the team for the next MSET c++ course.
BillH says:
I would need an account to update the material? What else is an account for?
Marcus says:
I think on August 15 I will replace the old frontpage and the textbook index page with a link to the new place. is that ok?
Marcus [to BillH]:
to work on any of the www material you need an account, right.
Marcus says:
you could in principle do damage to other GNA documents, but why would you :) also, uu-gna.mit.edu will be the place for the planned GNA C++ Library.
laurap [to Marcus]:
Fine with me -- has anyone installed ICE on sturgeon?
Marcus says:
the c++ consultants are elite since almost everyone of you has had his/her share of HTML by now..
laurap laughs
Marcus [to laurap]:
...:8003:/cgi-bin/ice... doesnt exist, but I didnt check further.
Marcus would like to mention that chap13 would NOT be on the net without LauraP.
(Marcus thinks: peArlman :) )
laurap [to Marcus]:
you have a newer ice than I do.
(laurap thinks: no, the *first* letter is capitalized :-) )
BrettK laughs.
Marcus [to laurap]:
I am cooler, is that what you mean :) ?
(BrettK thinks: boy does she like giving Marcus a hard time! )
laurap laughs.
BrettK says:
Can DU handle the student load?
Marcus laffs. I dont know. my webmaster-partner installed the present version. if at all, we have it directly from the author.
BrettK says:
I've heard that we've reached the limit on accounts
Marcus [to BrettK]:
there ARE new things on that:
with Gustavo Glusman's new remote-moo commands, there is absolutely no limitation to student numbers if we use biomoo and gna-lab (if necessary).
Marcus says:
see HELP #7796
BrettK says:
cool
Marcus says:
..together with the viewscreens. And god knows what else he'll have coded until this fall. What do people think is a realistic deadline for the next course?
BrettK says:
start or end?
Marcus says:
also, Brett - most of the studnets have temporary accounts which can be reqcycled.
laurap says:
I don't know -- I wish Daniel were here. I suspect his proposed schedule had something to do with his RL course schedule.
Marcus says:
I have ca 70 new names - about 2-3 new ones per week right now. And still no Usenet advertisement.
Marcus [to laurap]:
I think October 1 is a bit unrealistic. Unless everyone really knows already his bit to be done.
Marcus says:
The present course will, of course be complete by Oct 1, no problem. Even earlier.
Marcus guesses it really depends on what ELSE one would want to do. And re-shuffling the topics seems a necessity, doenst it?
Marcus says:
If you get O(5) new people through an official comp.lang.c++ announcement (progbably you can have more), you need a week to get them started (at least).
laurap says:
Yes, I think so. Actually I'd like to let people traverse the topics in a different order depending on their bacground/interests.
(Marcus thinks: lag? )
BrettK says:
that many people would probably necessitate assigned consultants
BillH says:
Can we assume that the second course will follow the material developed in the first course. And, the consultants will develop additional material during the second course that will be used for the third course. Of course, if possible, the new material could be incorparated into the second course
laurap has disconnected.
Marcus acks the lag!!
Marcus says:
I need to go now - I am available next week though if anyone wants to gather here again - now...can someone mail him/herself the transcript, HTMLize it and put it in the new WWW location (adm/transcripts/ - updating index.html in there)???
laurap has connected.
laurap says:
sorry -- I lost my connection.
BrettK says:
ok, I have to run also
BrettK waves to BillH, Marcus, and laurap.
Marcus says:
so did I, but I cannot stay on much longer - I think Bill's idea is gold. Also wrt to th people, just like now - recruit consultants from the course.
BrettK is currently trolling for conversation, please help him!
BrettK goes home.
laurap says:
Bill's idea?
Marcus says:
You missed it:
Marcus pastes:


@@sendmail
BillH says, "Can we assume that the second course will follow the material
developed in the first course. And, the consultants will develop additional
material during the second course that will be used for the third course. Of
course, if possible, the new material could be incorparated into the second
course"


laurap nods
Marcus says:
But I must go. Laura, you are the only one with acoutn - if you dont put the transcript out there, I shall, but only some time next week - thanks to all for coming. Looks like we *would* meet more often here :)
Marcus will be around, eventually.
Marcus waves good-bye.
laurap waves
Marcus goes home.
BillH says:
Bye
laurap [to BillH]:
Are we about ready to wrap things up?
BillH [to laurap]:
I'm done
BillH says:
Is the recorder off?
laurap says:
Umm, I'm trying to turn it off now...
BillH says:
Nope. It is on
laurap says:
I said I was *trying* :-)
BillH says:
You want me to try to turn it off?

-- End: Sunday, August 7, 1994 2:16:36 pm DUtime (EDT)